#the charas are still their own separate entities

[mushramoo]

elaboration on my Fredbear/nightmare design

[spidertroupeart]

Not gonna lie, we need more GOOD UNDERTALE AU outcodes... ya' know, the guys who go around the multiverse doing stuff with their own specific goals

I mean, we definitely have them, but it's sad that the last "Big" outcode to ever reach a greater audience was this sad mistake of an Error clone.

I mean, I'd highly suggest looking into stuff like Stitchau, Poppy's story, the ALIVE AU and No!sansverse (which is basically a take on the sansverse that de-sansifies the OUTCODE sanses, this sad sack of rooftop swordsman brainrot included), but it's unfortunate this guy gets more publicity than these three... we need more input from the community.

I don't want to insult or spread hate about undertale outcodes, AUs, or what have you; a lot of them were made by people who were genuinely trying to do something interesting- and unfortunately, everyone's favourite character at the time (and still the majority of the fandom's, probably) was Sans, so he always got the most attention. I can't complain a lot about that, considering I myself am also incredibly guilty of favouritism.

What I think is that a lot of what people were doing could be better expressed and made more interesting if different characters were used, and it didn't become a confusing mess of "Wait. Who's from where??" for me, personally. My brain is very small and can only handle so much.

But, along those lines, I'll share my thoughts that went into Ink!Chara and Ink!Asriel, to try and better make a point- the void, or anti-void, whatever it may be, is a neat concept, but I never really understood it myself- so I kind of made my own interpretation of it with my minimal knowledge.

The whole thing behind these two was that it's stated in-game that no one knows what would happen if a human and monster soul fused- so for all we know, the fusion could be incredibly unstable. Perhaps game-breaking. And along the lines of not knowing what would happen, it's even less known what would happen upon defeat- considering that a monster soul cannot persist for long after death (provided said monster is a boss monster), and a human's can persist for God knows how long.

What if this contradiction led to a huge bug in the already unstable game, and in order to save itself from a crash, the game just. Completely drops the souls? Shoves them out of the way to get everything working again once they were no longer active. We know for a fact that both Chara and Asriel (now Flowey's) souls are seemingly gone, so why not do something with that?

Ink!Chara and Ink!Asriel are separate entities from basegame Chara and Flowey, in that they are their souls and only their souls. My point is.

There are so many ways to make these outcodes more interesting (at least to me) just by using different characters and throwing things at the wall. Once again, nothing against the originals; without them I wouldn't even be having these ideas.

Apologies for this long and unstructured ramble, I've been wanting to properly talk about my inks for a while now lmao

[carlyraejepsans]

What's your interpretaion of Chara? I mean the one that we see at the end of the genocide run. Because I've seen some people now say that the one we see at the end of that route might be an entirely different species (as an actual demon) and I kind of want to hear your opinion on that

oh they're just human, but most importantly I'm of the very strong opinion that, fandom aside, you can't fully separate yourself from chara. they're the watsonian quantification of our role and influence within the game. undertale as a metanarrative lives in this precarious balance between worldbuilding that stands on its own, and its nature as a videogame, thus it being created to Be Played By Us. it makes some aspects of its world kinda wobbly. take the LOVE/EXP mechanic, for example. there's not really a reason why LV 20 should be the maximum LV you can reach, after all, there's still plenty more people we haven't killed. that is to say, no reason other than establishing when the genocide run is fully locked in. and the moment you try to apply that mechanic objectively to the rest of its world and its characters, it begins to flake apart. but i think chara is the most effective use of this kind of metanarrative in undertale.

there's this really weird moment at the end of the mother games where the game breaks the 4th wall and calls to the player directly. the games gather OUR name (and i mean our ours, the person playing the game at the moment) in... well, very silly ways. like a friend of one of the main characters calling for help on his school research about player names. it's not so much integrated into the plot, as a way to create a touching moment of connection directly between player and player characters (we pray for the safety of ness and his friends. lucas thanks us and says he's so happy to meet us in the endgame) that is not extended anywhere else in the game.

i didn't have the vocabulary for it before playing these games myself, but now i'm pretty much convinced that the fallen human/"chara" in UNDERTALE was a direct response to those moments in earthbound and mother 3. I don't need to recount those moments in the game where it becomes obvious that the intended way to name the fallen human is giving them your own name or nickname, but even if you don't do that, by the end of the game, you're meant to think of frisk as "chara" and "chara" as "your character". that's where the main plot twist of the story jumps off from.

and well... that IS what they are. "your character". the true character, in fact. so instead of the game breaking the 4th wall and calling to YOU, player, across the screen in a way that is alien and separate from the story, the game calls to YOU, THROUGH chara. through your character. remaining within the confines of its story and characters.

chara isn't us, WE are chara, and chara is the spirit of the first fallen human who died and was reawakened when frisk fell in the underground. when we play the game, we play AS "chara" controlling/guiding frisk through the underground (not gonna get into the chara/frisk dynamic here, that's a WHOLE 'nother can of worms).

however, there is an exception. because you see, although chara is meant to represent our actions ingame, we... aren't chara after all. we are real people playing a videogame. and because undertale is such a heavily meta game, it does, indeed, go there. acknowledging us as a separate entity, outside of this world, and more powerful than anything it has ever seen, and the way the game does that is through the genocide run.

it's not a coincidence that LOVEing up as a mechanic results in you "distancing yourself", as per sans' speech pre-judgement. if chara represents us in-game, then genocide is nothing but us pushing that link connecting us to its breaking point. because chara is who we are in the game, killing people is making THEM stronger (we can't get stronger ourselves, we're not fictional characters), but because EXP and LV make you distance from yourself, we are also making them independent. severing them from us and our will. it's kind of a negative parallel to our journey in pacifist, where chara is established as "not frisk" once and for all and THEY get to go on living their own life. hopefully. sorta.

so... yeah! chara is our true character in undertale and, aside from the genocide run, which tears the two of us apart, we have almost no reason to treat them as separate. and yes, that includes the violent acts. i am a narrachara/non-evil plotting mastermind chara believer through and true, but posing them as some hapless victim in our hands is... I'm sorry I can't take it seriously. it was a necessary overcorrection with the way they used to be treated by fanon back in the day, but it is an overcorrection nonetheless. YES, they might kill people. yes they might do that to their former family/friends, for very much the same reason asriel, as flowey, did. they were not the most adjusted person to begin with, but more importantly than that, the SOUL we see in undertale isn't theirs, it's FRISK'S. flowey says as much. when we defeat his omega form, the 6 SOULs disappear. when asriel died, the monsters started at 0 human SOULs, not 1 (ie: chara). chara is as soulless as asriel was when he was rein-cornaceaeted (lol) as flowey, with their ability to feel love and compassion stunted.

and with the added context of the SAVE powers removing consequences to their actions, and the repetitive nature of the game becoming tiring, well... we know what THAT did to flowey, right?

[exiledelle]

UNDERTALE YELLOW MERCILESS ROUTE SPOILERS

ive seen a couple people here and there be upset over how the route ends, but i want to give my two cents on why i actually really like it

(btw this is not at all me saying people HAVE to enjoy it, or arent allowed to dislike it, just sharing my own take on it)

if youve clicked the read more im going to assume youve played through the merciless route and seen its ending, or dont care about spoilers for it

otherwise what the heck are you doing here

but basically, what ive seen people get upset over a lot, is the fact that clover kills asgore and flowey instantly, takes the human souls, and then just waltzes out of the underground and beyond the players reach (which is my personal take on why resetting goes back to floweys control, and clover forgetting, instead of to when clover unlocks the save ability, is its not clover or flowey resetting, but us. the player IS a distinctly separate entity in ut/dr after all)

but honestly?? what else COULD have happened?? asgore couldnt handle frisk at level ONE. he didnt stand even a FRACTION of a chance against an lv 20 clover, who might i add, has a giant laser beam, a degree of soul magic not even frisk obtains. you COULD argue chara uses soul magic to "kill" our save file at the end of undertales merciless route though, i could see that, but still, clovers laser is a much more direct and obvious show of it. (and just to be safe, before anyone tries to say humans dont have magic, no, thats literally the entire premise of the setting is humans used magic to create the barrier, its just less present in humans than it is in monsters, who are made of the stuff)

and undertale yellows merciless route goes the route of deciding that undertales version already said everything there is to say on the meta aspects and the whole "you can so you need to" mindset, so instead it just calls it what it is: its a power trip. its mindless slaughter for the sake of getting stronger, whether its the player demanding a different ending (like deltarunes coldhearted route(im not calling it snowgrave, but this is entirely personal preference)), or again just wanting to see whatll happen. but either way its to feel strong.

and what happens at the end of that power trip? youve reached level 20. youve surpassed floweys control. you have as much power as you could ever hope to achieve. so, realistically:

whats stopping you from just killing asgore and leaving.

nothing. so you do.

and it leaves you wondering: was the power trip worth it. was the pain and suffering you caused worth it to get such a blatantly, not just non-canon, but ANTI-CANON ending? (EDIT: and i mean this in a positive way, its the same kind of self-reflection over your actions that undertale pulls, just communicated in a more indirect way)

and it being so anti-canon is part of why its such a haunting ending for me.

there really wasnt any other possible way for it to end. lv 20 itself and the way undertale and deltarune characterize that increase in power, in retrospect it feels obvious that it would be anti-canon in a prequel. monster souls are weaker than human souls, even at lv 1. so against a human whos lv 20, and who got there by constantly persisting and trying over and over to get past whatever obstacle is in front of them, and refuses to give up on their conquest, theres nothing anyone can do, and that alone rips the canon of undertale into shreds.

even SANS realizes theres nothing that can actually stop you, not even him, so the best he can hope for is that he puts up enough of a fight to make the player give up and/or reset, same reason his final attack is a turn that never ends.

and having to face that by helplessly watching clover blast an asgore-shaped hole in the story is TERRIFYING to me, in a way i really love the yellow team for doing. idk if its actually intentional or if im reading too much into it, but either way,

[cacartoon]

Does Frisk still have the ability to RESET and SAVE?

if so, what does the gang feel about this?

if not, then why?

I know my handwriting isn’t the best so I’ll explain it as best as I can.

This version of Frisk is from an ending I like to call “The Second Chance Ending”.

Frisk has lived many timelines and resets. They’ve seen the bad, the good, and everything in between. And I’m those resets began to realize that this endless loop was never going to lead to anything good. They hated witnessing the deaths of their loved ones, and though they’ve experienced every ending, it was never satisfying. Chara had warned Frisk of these outcomes but also knew that Frisk themselves was not evil. That the choices they made were due to an outside presence not their own (Yeah that’s right looking right at you player). The two humans knew they wanted a happy ending and for the cycle to stop. Chara wanted peace and happiness for everyone, just like Frisk.

So on Frisk’s final run, they did a true ending. This time, Frisk made a choice that would end the cycle for good. Using their determination, they gave up their ability to reset and save, forever removing themselves from that power. However like all things, everything has a price. Frisk gave up this power in exchange for giving new life to Chara, Asriel, and Flowey (this making Flowey and Asriel two separate entities now) This new life had now linked their souls and gave them very interesting abilities. Frisk knew that this would give them a second chance to take control of their life once again, and they wanted Chara and Asriel (and Flowey) to experience that as well. This time, they all get a second chance at a happy end.

This is also a finished version of Frisk giving up their RESET and SAVE

[undertale-fic-librarby]

Hello! I know a lot of FANTASTIC fics, and I think they should be read more!

I can't link anything on anon, so I'm only able to give the titles, summaries, and who wrote them :(

Two Too Cool Assholes Share A Body by TheInevitableSense Teen and Up, unfinished [WARNING for suicide and suicidal thoughts] "In which mistakes are made that can't be taken back. Mistakes that land Sans and Mettaton in another reality. One where they are share the same body. Whoops. Surrounded by friends that don't remember they even existed as separate entities, can our heroes find a way back to normal? More importantly, can they survive each other until then?" (god I love this fic so much.)

Sugarless Milk Chocolate by starrylitme Teen and Up, unfinished WARNING for suicidal ideation "“I’m really tired, so... You win, kid. I give up.” And, as awful as it is, those words are liberating. (In which Chara really needs a new method of making friends to murder with. Granted, this method they're going with might just work. Vaguely. Like, they have their moments at least. Circumstances are still pretty terrible, but it's still something.) (Also known as "Wow isn't that story title cute. Yeah uh, this story isn't very cute in context.") (This one is edgy but it's edgy in a way that's actually so cool and I love it so much and I can't stand how much I love it aghghg)

bone to be wild by SquareFriend Not Rated, oneshot (In my opinion this one can be rated as General Audiences, if you ignore all the cursing) "Sans and Undyne make a grocery run. It goes about as well as you’d expect." (Their dialogue feels very in-line with canon)

Core the Apple by Devcipher Teen and Up, finished WARNING for a suicide attempt and sparse energy consumption that could be interpreted as an eating disorder. "Nightmare has grown weary of the constant strife between himself and his brother. Every time he manages to fuel the ever-persistent need for negativity in his system, Dream and his friends immediately sap it out of him. So, Nightmare has decided he was done. If they believed the multiverse was better without negativity, he was okay with that. He'd well descended past apathy years ago." (I read this years ago, I should read it again.)

(I love these fics so so so so much)

I might suggest more in the future, because BOY do I have a lot of recommendations.

Oh, and here's one of my own fics: If I killed someone for you by SundogSkies Teen and Up, oneshot "Nightmare had given Killer an ultimatum. Either Killer cut ties with the human himself, or Nightmare would execute them. Because of course. Of course things would turn out like this. Why did he expect anything different? No matter how hard he tried, no matter what it was he loved, whether it be a rock or a human or a- a cat, he could never have anything good in his life. Not- ... ...Not while Nightmare was still alive. Or: Things have been building up for a long time. Maybe it was inevitable Killer would break like this. Or or: Did you know that canon Killer used to have cats, key words being 'used to'? It's a relevant detail." It's not the best, I'm aware, but I think it's still enjoyable.

I hope you have a good day :)

-SundogSkies

Howdy, & thanks for the recommendations! The fics being recommended are…

Two Too Cool Assholes Share A Body by TheInevitableSense (Teen And Up, Incomplete)

In which mistakes are made that can't be taken back. Mistakes that land Sans and Mettaton in another reality. One where they are share the same body. Whoops. Surrounded by friends that don't remember they even existed as separate entities, can our heroes find a way back to normal? More importantly, can they survive each other until then?

Sugarless Milk Chocolate by starrylitme (Teen And Up, Incomplete)

“I’m really tired, so... You win, kid. I give up.” And, as awful as it is, those words are liberating. (In which Chara really needs a new method of making friends to murder with. Granted, this method they're going with might just work. Vaguely. Like, they have their moments at least. Circumstances are still pretty terrible, but it's still something.) (Also known as "Wow isn't that story title cute. Yeah uh, this story isn't very cute in context.")

bone to be wild by SquareFriend (Not Rated, Complete)

Sans and Undyne make a grocery run. It goes about as well as you’d expect.

Core the Apple by Devcipher (Teen And Up, Complete)

Nightmare has grown weary of the constant strife between himself and his brother. Every time he manages to fuel the ever-persistent need for negativity in his system, Dream and his friends immediately sap it out of him. So, Nightmare has decided he was done. If they believed the multiverse was better without negativity, he was okay with that. He'd well descended past apathy years ago.

If I killed someone for you by SundogSkies (Teen And Up, Complete)

Nightmare had given Killer an ultimatum. Either Killer cut ties with the human himself, or Nightmare would execute them. Because of course. Of course things would turn out like this. Why did he expect anything different? No matter how hard he tried, no matter what it was he loved, whether it be a rock or a human or a- a cat, he could never have anything good in his life. Not- ... ...Not while Nightmare was still alive. Or: Things have been building up for a long time. Maybe it was inevitable Killer would break like this. Or or: Did you know that canon Killer used to have cats, key words being 'used to'? It's a relevant detail.

[notademon10]

CRACK THEORY: KRIS=FRISK ACTUALLY MAKES SENSE?

The ultimate "Krisk" theory.

This is an admitetly ambicious theory that not only proposes that Kris is the Deltarune version of Frisk, but theorizes on it's implications. This means I'll be trying to solve a lot of things that might end up connecting to this, whether you see it coming or not. In other words: I'll put quite a few seemingly unrelated pieces together, and the result might just end up being something you won't like. You have been warned. That being said, I want to be as thematically coherent as possible with these games, which is something I THINK some people miss.

PART I. WHO AND WHAT IS FRISK LIKE

First off, Frisk is likely a pacifist. Their armor, the bandage, is usless except for the fact that it heals you, as well as secretly guaranteeing escape if you flee on the first turn. That's not even mentioning that Frisk is most determined in true paz, (as well as they ONLY ever smile when choosing options that relate to this route) PLUS the mirror at the end saying "Still just you, Frisk". Their weapon is the stick, which doesn't do ANYTHING at all, except sometimes being super helpful for acting in some scpecific fights. But the most damning peace of evidence comes from their soul color. We actually DO know what it stands for! Papyrus HEAVLY implies in a phonecall in elevator L3 from Hotland that it's actually... LOVE! Thus, this means that they MUST link to this concept, including their armor, and everything points towards normal Love, not, you know, L.O.V.E.

This ALSO explains WHY there are 2 red soul humans in Undertale! One represents Love, the pacifist route, and the other the genocide route, with Violence. I mean, Chara explained that THEY were the feeling of seeing numbers increase. ATK, DF, and of course, LV. To add to this, the mirror in geno says: "It's me, Chara".

A VERY important thing to mention is the RED description in Ballgame: Try as you might, but you continue to be yourself. This differenciates Frisk and Chara from Flowey as they are very true to themselves, while he changed due to the absence of "LOVE", of Chara. I actually believe that every main monster represents a lack of a certain human trait, but that's for another day.

So... Is Frisk Chara? Or some sort of combination of them and a monster, like Asriel? What I've just said is confusing, but it does have a precedent. There's a video made by Sock Muppet titled "Who are you?" that explains this much further, and the main argument for it is that in order for Frisk to exit the barrier, they must have two souls: a monster soul and a human soul.

Unfortunatly, I believe it is debunkable, because even if you believe that Frisk "the fusion" is it's own entity separate from Chara in a weird way, Asriel asks "Why did you climb the mountain?", which is something that only Chara did, so you would still have to accept that these two humans are the same, even on a thematic level, which contradicts Asriel's line "Frisk, you really ARE different from Chara. I don't know why I ever acted like you were the same person. The truth is, Chara wan't really the greatest person. While you, Frisk, are the type of friend I wish I always had."

A much better explanation for why Frisk could have exited the barrier is because they had the determination of two human souls, theirs, and OURS. After all, the legends of localitation book confirms that it is OUR determination that lets us use the save and load ability, while Frisk is just along for the ride.

PART II. WHY DID THEY CLIMB THE MOUNTAIN?

I swear this is critical.

Well, I believe we DO know why. In Snowdrakes battle, there's a 1/6 chance of you saying "Nobody will ever love for the way you are". It's harsh, and very clearly projection, but from who? You see, there is evidence of Chara acting on their own on normal routes, like when you tell dirty jokes to Joshua all of them link back to Chara's story: "two kids playing in the mud", "a kid sleeping in the soil" and "a kid who ate pie with their bare hands". So who's it actually saying this, Frisk or Chara? I believe it applies to them BOTH. As it is THE reason they fell down the mountain. Let me explain. We know this MUST be the MAIN problem they have with themselves because love is LITERALLY their MAIN trait. But how do I know it applies to them both? Well, given how Frisk and Chara are foils to each other, then their reasons for coming down must be parallel or linked in some way. After all, it would be odd if only ONE of them fell down because of a lack of love, and not the other, especially when BOTH of them seem to have been neglected.

However.. there is also the fact that Clam girl tells us why Frisk fell down here. "In the grand scheme of things, Suzy might be the reason why you came here". However, it is literally impossible for them to KNOW about her, as she is literally a monster underground. So I think we should look at this situation more metaphorically. How does she tie into Frisk's reason to climb the underground?

"Nobody will ever love you the way you are."

The only way I can connect this to her is if she IS that "nobody". Or better said, the somebody that will love them for the way they are. There's just a little problem with this... Every monster ends up loving them the way Frisk really is in True paz, the only route in which they can properly meet Suzy. Even Asriel makes a point about how they love Frisk almost instantly.

Again we need to think. In which way would Suzy love Frisk?

Platonically: Every monster already does that.

In a familial way: Asgore, Toriel and debatibly Asriel already do that.

There's only one option left. And that is... One that I'm sure you won't like, but I feel obligated to suggest regardless. I understand if you don't like this idea, and that the connection between them is just multiversal.

But.

Asriel implies the reason behind Frisk falling is a much more mundane, sadder reality. His facial expression and tone is enough. And, with the whole destiny and fate theme taken into account, I believe there is a good argument to make that Suzy might just end up loving Frisk romantically. However, I haven't really "proven" Frisk is Kris yet, so there's one thing I want to discuss: Sans.

PART III. SANDS DELTAROON???

So Sans and Papyrus are from Deltarune. This has been covered to death by other people. While Papyrus is a bit more dubious, his recent QnAs basically confirm this.

The thing is if Sans is from DR, then he has experienced events that haven't happened yet. So it's entirely possible that he coulf be a useful tool in helping us know what those events could be. And I think we can. Because there are two things that don't sit with me right: his hatred of promises, and you. Let's start with his hatred for us. It can't be that he hates humanity like the rest of the underground, as he is from a universe in which humans and monsters seem to get along just fine. There could still be differences, but racism would be seen pretty much exactly like in our world. So then, is he aware of the player? Or is it something else?

To understand exactly what he hates about us, the best place to look is his infamous genocide dialogue.

"listen. i know you didn't answer me before but... somewhere in there, i can feel it. there's a glimmer of a good person inside of you. the memory of someone who once wanted to do the right thing. someone who, in another time, might have even been... a friend? c'mon buddy. do you remember me? please, if you're listening... let's forget all this, ok?"

This dialogue ocurres even if this is your first playthrough. So, I have a question for you. What could he be possibly referring to? What glimmer, what MEMORY is he feeling? But if course, that entire speech could literally just be him bluffing, right?

The thing is, he's REALLY fucking good at reading Frisk's expressions, do he SHOULD know whether or not "we" remember Sans, and were even friends with him. But, there's just a LITTLE problem with this.

How COULD Frisk remember Sans in our first playthrough?

...Well, here's the thing, they DON'T!

Because the memory he's feeling is HIS.

And who does he remember?

Who did he not forget, because he made a promise in his heart?

Three very specific people. The three Delta Warriors.

So! Kris is Frisk, right??

...Well, here's the thing: Kris might not be the human hero, because of this:

And also this:

The human hero is simply called "Human", which could only make sense if, at the very least on one route, Kris isn't the hero. Who then, could it be? Well, if the lack of facial features didn't give it away, it's the vessel, Kris' parallel. So WHO is the vessel, then? Well, I believe it is none other than the Deltarune version of Chara!

PART IV. CHARA IS THE VESSEL??

At the end of geno, they want us to eradicate the UT world, and move on the next world. This is very clearly a metaphor for us completionists to completly consume the next game. It just so happens that the next game we play could very well be Deltarune.

...no, this isn't all of it. Because the second time you do the route, their dialogue changes and reveals some interesting things.

"Greetings.

I am Chara.

The demon that comes when people call it's name.

It doesn't matter when, it doesn't matter where

Time after time, I will appear.

And with your help.

We will eradicate the enemy and become strong.

Every time a number increases, that feeling...

That's me."

I have one simple question: what was Chara reffering when they said it didn't matter when, or where?

It couldn't be because we sold our SOUL to Chara, because while the one we gave them did belong to us, it was Frisk's SOUL. There's not really any other explanation for this happening, as they only really possess it in the ending, when the player has stopped playing. Chara's possession wouldn't be meaningful in any way if their time in Frisk's body corresponded to the player's playtime.

So... How could they be everywhere as well as well as be anytime??

This is going to sound farfetched, but I have no other option:

Either Chara's SOUL was somehow shattered across time and space along with Gaster, and/or Chara is talking about other worlds, atleast the Deltarune one.

All of this to say... You call Chara at the very beggining of Deltarune, or at the very least... You can. Because not only can you name yourself or the vessel "Chara", you can name yourselves whatever way you originally named them as.

... But, you end up naming two people: the vessel and it's creator. So who IS Chara?

I believe it is the vessel. Simply put, the name that the casual player is going to give them is probably like any other protagonist, or in the very specific case of UT, the first fallen human. While the name they're going to give the creator is going to THEIR name. And I mean, if both the vessel and creator were characters, then naming them in a sense would be calling two different Charas. While if only the vessel is a character, while the creator is US, you would only be calling one Chara, while the creator would just be you, since you wouldn't be calling anyone else, just yourself.

On the toic on whatever you're supposed to call Chara, Toby Fox said "Your name, if you can't think of anything else lol". But when asked on twitter if naming Chara after their cat would be ok, which he said that it would ALSO work.

I think "your name" could be referring to the name you put yourself when you play any game, really. Kind of like "notademon" is my username on this site, but obviously is not my name.

I also have one last trick up my sleeve. Remember the unused human? You can see them as Frisk's reflection in waterfall, if you activate debug mode. At first, I thought it was just a beta version of Chara.. but they appear in a reflection in waterfall. And by then, Chara had already one single stripe. After all, their design had originated when Temmie had accidentally drawn a single stripe on Frisk!

What I'm trying to say is that the unused human could never have been implemented in tge actual game, as Frisk and Chara already have their design. Which means that the unused human might just be a teaser for Deltarune. So who could they end up being?

Given how it's Frisk's reflection, they must parallel each other in some way.

Well, this really only leaves either the vessel or Kris. And given how Kris' skin is completly different to the one our mystery character posseses, this really only leaves one other character: the vessel.

But wait... If I'm saying the vessel is the unused huma, as well as Chara... Then that means the unused human IS Chara too??? But their skin and hair is completly different!!

Yeah, and that's because Chara in geno, looks like someone who either lacks ANY sunlight, or just a corpse. My theory is that Chara, before dying, looked similarly to the unuswd human, but with cheeks also there. Why aren't the supposed DR Chara's cheeks visible? Well, why isn't their mouth visible? Even Kris has their mouth visible. It's almost like they don't have any facial features... Like the vessel, their goner version!

And what name does the unused human have in the files? CHARA. However, Frisk is named mainchara in the files, so the "Chara" here could very easily be short for character, so it isn't as decisive as it may seem.

On how did Chara manage to become a goner I am completly unaware. There are so many things we don't know about and this post is already getting long enough as is so I'll save it for another day. Maybe.

But now that I may or may not have uncovered the vessel's secret identity, this really only leaves one person who the alternate iteration of Frisk could possibly be: Kris!

PART V. KRIS IS FRISK!

I'd start with the fact that they share the same hair color and shin color, but everyone already knows that. How about some other things instead.

Pianpian is the name of the song that plays in the hidden Kris dreemurr page. It's... An interesting name, because Pian is an anagram for pain, but also piano without the letter o. Which is EXACTLY how you get from Frisk to Kris, as Kris is just an anagram of Frisk without the letter F.

Second, while it may seem difficult to know what Kris' morals are at first hand, I think a very important piece of evidence is their relationship with Susie, because they very clearly love her. This isn't just me pulling my shipper headcannons, there's actually a lot of in-game evidence that's actually quite solid.

...Again, read my posts on this topic.

But what does this have to do with Frisk? Well, everything! Because the way Kris deals with Susie is the way players are encouraged to do the pacifist route, but to an extent where it's flaws are shown. While you CAN fight most monsters until they spare you, this won't get you the yellow, happier descriptions in the credits of UT. Players are encouraged to ACT, instead. Kris, for whatever reason, remains quiet as to not alert their mother and punish, or perhaps even expel her. However, when they do ACT in new girl, they do it in a very flirty and natural way, very similar to how Frisk acts in UT. The reason I say this is flawed is becuase if this took place in the real world, they should have told Toriel about the situation, because if they didn't, Susie wouldn't have changed. Asriel even tells Frisk about this: "Not everything can be resolved by being nice."

...What I'm trying to say is, Kris wouldn't be this interested in Susie if they were a hateful person.

Other things:

When you lecture Ruddin, Kris will talk about the importance of kindness.

Both Frisk and Kris can play the piano.

Kris is a natural flirter, as seen with Head Hathy.

Kris in the entire weird route is stated to be very different as to how they actually are.

They wear a bandage and a pencil, almost like a more evolved version of the stick.

Kris has red eyes. When Frisk is possesed by Chara they have red eyes, but if this type of eyes are natural, then it is entirely possible that Frisk ALSO has red eyes.

In the 2023 aniversary newsletter Frisk is mistakenly referred to as Kris. So Toby can't even tell them apart LMAO.

Bratty says that when Kris was younger, they wanted to hang out with the big kids, and they jokingly said that if they went to buy some burgers Kris would be able to do so. Kris actually did exactly that and still got rejected. Poor kid...

What I'm trying to say is that Kris may actually be a lot nicer than we may have thought. Them being a prankster doesn't actually affect wheter they're hurtful or not. In fact, in the normal route in chapter 2, in one of the electric barrier puzzles, Noelle can activate the barrier in the exact spot Kris was in, and she will note how Kris seems hurt by her prank, meaning that Kris doesn't actually like pranks that they think are dangerous (not anymore?).

But, I wouldn't be honest with you if I didn't PROPERLY adress the counterevidence, even finding some of my own (people should do this more often).

First, their handedness.

Kris' handedess seems to be ambidextrous, as they use their left hand in ch 1 ending and their right hand in ch 2 ending.

What about Frisk's handedness...? At first, they seem to be left-handed, as their slash sprite is always the same, and would make more sense if it came from a left hand. But if you remember when Toriel was going through the spike puzzle, Toriel grabs Frisk's hand with her right hand. But Frisk alternates between their left hand and right one. Even when they grab the umbrella the exact same thing happens. It isn't a bug, Toriel's hand is consistent, it's Frisk's hands that aren't. I think that if Toby doesn't care that much about keeping Frisk dominant with one hand then we shouldn't either. I mean, the slash sprite always being the same could easly be explained by Toby not wanting to add another one because it would look weird. Tldr Frisk is probably ambidextrous because Toby doesn't care, at least not anymore in UT's final release.

So! That's everything, right?

No... Because I still have to tackle Sans' relationship with Frisk, as I kind of just recontextualized it in it's entirety.

PART VI. UNDERSTANDING SANS

So why does Sans hate Frisk so much? Why does he hate making promises? I mean, "don't forget" is a promise too, implying that he too, hated making that promise.

Well, for starters, I believe that Toriel asking him to protect the next human is not theo ONLY reason Sans didn't attack them. He made the mysterious promise to not forget Kris and their friends, which in turn meant that he couldn't forget about Frisk either, and their memories of being a good person.

Well, he does mention that they don't know it feels, knowing that one day everything will be reset. So is it possible that Kris will or has reset Deltarune? Perhaps, but I would like to point out something slightly less outlandish for the sake of this post.

His infamous line: "kids like you should be buring in hell" gains some interesting implications when you remember what "Hell" is associated with in Deltarune: The Roaring. After all, Jevil refers to it as "HELL'S ROAR", and Ralsei, when describing the roaring asks: "Is this your idea of paradise" wording which definetly will become very important later in the game.

After all, why WOULD Sans try to leave his homeworld? What catastrophe would make him leave, if not the Roaring or worse? And, why WOULD Sans say this to Frisk? Could it be, that he finds the idea of Frisk suffering in the calamity that is Hell's Roar? But that could only happen if...

Kris consciously helped bring or directly brought Hell itself to Deltarune.

How???? It directly contradicts EVERYTHING that I've been trying to say about Frisk! ...Right?

Well, the Roaring seems to be an allegory to something very interesting: letting yourself be consumed by fiction. So let's think, why would Frisk, or better said Kris, do this at all?

Well, if it HAD to be ONE reason in particular, it would be the same reason they climbed Mt. Ebott: because nobody loved them they way they are. Or at the very least, they THOUGHT so.

This question of seemingly not knowing if anybody loves Kris for the way they are is one that's been directly building up in the new girl page in the sweepstakes, particularly when Susie says that if Kris dissapeared, Toriel would be happy, and then Kris says something unexpected that Noelle doesn't hear. It also further connects Kris to Frisk and Chara, and maybe even the other six fallen humans. Of course, I DO belive that at least their family DOES love them for the way they are, at least to some extent, as well as Rudy and Noelle. Also, Susie is friends with Kris, not the player, because we can be the worst person imaginable and Susie doesn't care because she's not OUR friend, she's Kris', as them saving her is much more important than whatever we do in Chapter 1, at least as of now. Again, it's just that Kris THINKS they don't. But... Why?

Well, it could be anything from Kris hiding something from their friends that completly changes their view to US controlling them, making them feel like their friends don't love THEM. However, Frisk isn't noted to be upset in the pacifist route, so I don't think they mind if we do what they want, after all, they DO influence or ACTs. Instead, what if us controlling Kris makes their friends FEEL like they AREN'T their friend?

To this I... Do not know. There are so, SOO many possible plot points that it would just be too much for this post. So I'll leave it here. If you have any gripes with this theory, please let me know as long as you aren't borderline hateful. I do genuenly want to improve, even if it means acknowledging that my theory is objectivly bad, or something. But if you DO think I'm onto something PLEASE like and share, this is like the very first ACTUAL theory I've posted, so please let me know!

[smellslikefeathers]

Am I wrong for thinking most Undertale fans actually DON'T realize what Chara represents?

That an alarming number of them think Chara is evil by default and the player isn't at all to blame for them turning into a demon in the Genocide route?

This was definitely true in the early days of the fandom at least. I'm pretty sure I was one of those people at one point, sadly. I do know there are STILL people who think that way. Not because of any failing on Toby Fox's part, but because people, especially younger people, are media illiterate. (My excuse is that I was also somewhat media illiterate, but I'm trying to get better.)

And those fans get mad at Toby for not releasing merchandise of Chara because of what their character represents in the game. Chara's personality and behavior is a direct result of the player's actions in-game. They are an extension of the player. But the fans who don't truly understand this see Chara not as themselves, but as a separate entity altogether that has nothing to do with them. And yet they blame their own actions on Chara.

Genocide Chara didn't make you kill all those monsters. That was you. Chara was just influenced to evil by YOU. Genocide Chara is a demon, while you are the angel of death in the prophecy. You showed them power, and it corrupted them.

Pacifist Chara, meanwhile, is a witty, charming, and precocious kid because you showed them that peace is, in fact, an option. That love is better than LOVE. And even if they're silent about everything Asriel says about them, it's safe to assume they come to understand how hurtful their past actions were. And they seem to be content to let Frisk - and you - go when everyone leaves the Underground.

Chara is like any other human child... a product of influence. Your influence in their case. Children are never inherently evil or hateful. That stuff is taught, always. Are there evil adults? Yes. But they didn't start out that way from birth. And all humans have the capacity to change and become better people. Granted, some of them don't want to because they care more about power and control. But not every human is a lost cause. Some just need some love, kindness, patience, friendship, and empathy.

Not sure how to end this one or where to go with it. I just wanted to get this off my chest.

[stainedglassthreads]

Headcanon that I don’t believe is fact whatsoever, because I’m still not convinced Chara and Frisk are in Deltarune to begin with. But imagine if Ralsei weren’t based off of Kris’ idea of Asriel or what they wanted to be like at all. 

Imagine  if Chara were the one behind Ralsei’s creation. If, in Undertale we explored Asriel/Flowey’s misconceptions and idealization of Chara, and now in Deltarune we get to explore Chara’s misconceptions and idealization of Asriel. 

Again, I'm not really convinced that Chara is the one who interrupted the survey. But I’ve seen some interesting analysis about the survey, and about how it feels like Ralsei was not initially meant to be a part of the narrative, even if Kris, Susie, and Noelle were all always meant to. So I was briefly wondering if the same person who interrupts the survey is also the same person who created Ralsei. (Mostly going off of gut feelings here, I’ll admit. I think Gaster and a second entity are both trying to ‘alter the narrative.’ Gaster does talk about a ‘new’ future in the Twitter so... are Ralsei and Kris both an attempt by ‘someone’ to change the future?) 

But. Anyways. I dunno. It’s been mentioned previously that Ralsei parallels Flowey in many ways, and seems to reflect the fandom’s perception of Undertale Asriel. He’s certainly the precise opposite of Deltarune Asriel. Deltarune Asriel, whose presence can be strongly felt in Hometown even when he’s absent. Who all of Hometown can’t shut up about, who most of Hometown thinks they share a special connection with. Compare it all to Ralsei, the lonely prince who Noelle and Berdly don’t remark upon at all, who other Darkners will refer to as a ‘Lightner’, who is the biggest proponent of how Darkners should be subservient to the Lightners, who just melts into a puddle of clothes and vanishes when he loses all his HP. 

I do think that Chara was probably a fairly introverted and shy personality. Certainly, Asriel was a lot louder than them during the recorded tapes. But at times it does sort of match up? Asriel was Chara’s best friend, and Ralsei wants to be our best friend. Asriel and the other Dreemurrs showed Chara unconditional love and compassion, and Ralsei initially believes that ‘being nice’ is all you really need to be friends. Asriel followed Chara’s plan to free monsterkind, and Ralsei is very stubborn about Kris being the one to make decisions, Kris being the leader, Kris having the power to make choices, to the point Susie needs to force him to make his own decisions. Asriel was a pacifist and refused to kill the whole village even though he was willing to collect seven souls at first, and Ralsei makes a point about Mercy being the best choice (but will attack if Kris orders him to do so.) 

If he is Chara’s idea of Asriel, then no wonder he has no idea how to be very “Ralsei-like.” He’s the echo of a ghost of an otherworldly reflection. 

It is kinda interesting, though, how one of the most remembered of UT!Asriel’s traits is that Asriel is a crybaby, with even Chara remarking on it, but Ralsei... isn’t much of a crybaby? Like Toriel, he’s not very emotional at all, really. He’s more the type to just move along and not really address his own emotions. Either they can address the problem later, or there’s nothing they can really do about it at all. 

It’s also interesting in that he isn’t completely without similarities to Chara. I feel like a similarity could be drawn in how it’s implied you Chara was reawoken by Frisk, and though beginning as a passive entity, is taught by Frisk’s actions. Either shown that everyone they cared for once has been saved, or taught that power is the only thing that matters. Likewise, Ralsei has been taught by Susie and Kris’ actions that sometimes fighting is necessary. He also seems to have some awareness of both the Light World, stats and game interfaces, and the separation between Kris and the Player. 

Again, I still have lots of doubts about Chara being in Deltarune, but... it’s an interesting headcanon to toy around with? Flowey misses his best friend so much that he thinks they returned when he called their name. Chara misses their best friend so much that they create a warped reflection of him, and watch him slowly become the prince he never got the chance to be, adventuring along with some other human. Slowly becoming someone different. Someone... distinctly not Asriel. At what point are they forced to realize that Ralsei was never, ever Asriel? 

[dragonflame32]

Ok, so.

I don't exactly know what I'm doing, this is the first time I post something on Tumblr, but anyway.

I want to present you an AU of Undertale that has been on my mind for a while, and here I intend to write the main things about it.

Practically, in this AU Frisk is an actual person, a separated entity from the Player that got themselves possessed by it. Kinda like Kris in Deltarune, yes. The difference between the two of them is that Frisk can't just extract their soul by force and so they're stuck in their own body, controlled by a superior entity (PLAYER). Frisk desperately wants to be freed, but when the Player inserts a command in the code of the game, plays yet another Pacifist run (of the many runs they already did) and fights Asriel, Frisk will learn that said freedom comes at the cost of their soul. During the last attack their soul literally breaks, despite it being impossible normally, and their code gets erased. Since they are a determination soul though, and determination can break the game, all the determination they produce gets condensed and forms a new body for them, so now they are a soulless, codeless and unstable entity that goes around risking an explosion of raw power at any moment. In all this mess, Chara gets fused with Frisk's conscience too, so now they are like one different entity from both Frisk and Chara. Meanwhile, in the "real world" the Player changes computer (because their old one crashed in the battle) and reopens their Undertale files. This causes the game to try and execute a True Reset, without much success since now nobody remembers anything, but the barrier is broken and Frisk's/Chara's situation is the same.

This is all the background you need to know to understand the general idea. I'm still working on the full-length story, it's on Quotev and I intend to post it on Wattpad too under the name of Soulless!tale. It's not yet finished, and I wrote down only a couple of chapters, so don't be mad at me. This is the first time I write something for someone to read, and I'm not American nor British, so forgive me if my english is bad.

This is all I wanted to say. I'm sorry if my rambling annoyed you, and I hope you will find my story amusing.

[ellystral]

I think so too but I still treat Kris and Chara as separate entities because they did not grew up in the same conditions. They are the equivalent of each other in their own universes but they are not the same person because their worlds aren't the same thing either. It's like baking a cookie where you put one in a normal oven and the other in a toaster oven and put it the two on completely different timers and temperatures and when its done you compare the two being exactly the same when no, it is not the same. Those cookies may be made from the same batter but they are never gonna be the same because those cookies were affected by different ovens (worlds) with different timers (time period) and temperature (circumstances).

Perhaps the cookies were not made to be like each other at all. Maybe someone likes a soft cookie or someone likes crunchier cookie. They are still cookies but they'll still go to different people. They are still cookies but not in a way meant to go in the same packaging. They are still cookies but they won't have the same names because of how they turned out. They are still cookies but either one is gonna be dipped in milk.

See how vastly different that is? To be the same but still very different at the same time?

Transcript: I've been stuck here since 2016 and I am utterly convinced from all angles that Kris is Chara. Not in the sense that Chara from UT jumped universes and possessed Kris, but in the sense that they're the deltarune universe's equivalent. And I don't get why it's such an unpopular idea.

Like... it's so obvious that that's the connection the game is trying to draw, from being Asriel's sibling to the chocolate to the talent for unnerving facial expressions to the fashion sense. Is it because different names? Is it because the old and deprecated idea that chara is a one-dimensional demonspawn? Is it some other weird fanonism that subtly nailed itself into our heads that we forgot was fanon? I don't know and it's like... am I missing something? Am I being blinded by some weird fanonism that nailed itself into my head that I forgot was fanon?? Am I reading into it too much? Are other people reading into it too much?? Or not reading into it enough?????

It's frustrating

[perenlop]

at this point toby could have someone in deltarune flat out say “the player is a separate entity from the humans and the humans are being puppeteered by you, they do not reflect you and are their own people and also they are nonbinary and only use they/them pronouns” and the fans would still be insisting the humans are blank slates for the player and their genders are up for interpretation and kris does That to noelle on their own and chara is the one killing people in no mercy not us bc its not that deep

[carlyraejepsans]

do you prefer frisk being the genocidal one and chara being the pacifistic one or vice versa?

much much, MUUUCH more complicated than that buddy. from a meta/actual game's message pov? i think it's important that frisk has the space to live their own life and be themself only after we've set them up to be a merciful person with true pacifist. at the same time, they're also willing to fight when we want to!

as for chara, i think the distinction between their and the player's will is pretty much useless in any run other than genocide, where we DO push them to become as bloodthirsty as we are, but we make them so powerful they become their own entity, completely alien to our will and ungovernable once the run is completed. in this run, frisk is progressively pushed aside by the narrative as the focus shifts on the separation of us and chara, until frisk is completely taken over. honestly... i really like the theory that frisk is, technically speaking, chara's reincarnation, and that while pacifist allows chara's unfinished business to be dealt with and their spirit to be put to rest (allowing frisk to move on as their own being), killing everyone in the underground will do the opposite, make chara's spirit stronger and stronger through LV and EXP (kind of as an inverse parallel to flowey taking everyone's souls and turning back into asriel in PP) until they eventually take over entirely and confront US, player, face to face.

from a more... how do i say. fanfictiony pov, taking undertale not as a videogame with meta elements but as a story that stands on its own... i like to imagine they made decisions together. it's implied that when a monster absorbs a human SOUL and is killed/defeated, that human SOUL dies/disappears entirely. so if chara still lives on as a ghost bound to frisk, they're technically SOULless like flowey, which would cause a sense of detachment in the event of violence taking place. i think... they feel through frisk. so if frisk behaves with kindness and mercy, their feelings will follow, and if they don't... well. same thing really. they're partners :]

[inbarfink]

So I want to take a moment to talk about one of my favorite Subtle Bits of Good Game Design in Undertale.

So the Player Character of Undertale has one singular expression, and that is “-_-”. 

It can be comedic exasperation or grim determination or calm serenity or whatever. It’s designed to be as neutral as possible so that players can easily make themselves project their own emotions on the character. but that neutrality can only go so far, there’s plenty of points in Undertale where “-_-” is not the reaction most players would have to the situation. And while this can be funny in comedic scenes....

It might be a bit of a mood killer in more dramatic scenes. And for that, Undertale has a solution.

Undertale’s most dramatic scenes are almost always designed in such a way that the player character’s actual face is totally obscured and so the Player can imagine them having whatever expression that they have right now. Usually by making the character turn their back to the screen.

But also sometimes by using lighting effects to hide their expression:

Most obviously every single Boss Battle Prelude in Undertale involves the Player Character’s face being obscured from the Player:

(you can argue this is also because of the design of the battle interface - you always see your enemy in front view, so it might just be a first-person view of what the character sees buuuuuuut Papyrus and Sans face you in a side-view and the game still hides the character’s face via weather effects\lighting.)

So this is all nice and Very Well Designed but the thing is........ Undertale’s ‘featureless protagonist’ is a bit of a misdirection. And especially in the Pacifist Route, the game starts taking steps to establish that this character, Frisk, is separate from the Player. Partly to make it unambiguously clear that RESETing a True Pacifist Ending is inexcusable in-universe. You can’t go “oh but if I stop playing the game won’t my friends miss me? Because they’re not actually your friends, they’re Frisk’s friends.

(Also I usually use Frisk to refer the the player character of Undertale in a general sense because that’s easier, but the game only confirms their name is Frisk in the Pacifist Route. And in fact, to this day even the most spoiler-heavy pieces of Official Undertale Merch do not actually use the name “Frisk” and I often wonder what’s up with that but that probably deserve it’s own post) 

And because the True Pacifist Route set out to separate us from Frisk, you see that little bit of Face-Hiding-Immersion being broken more and more often. For example, the tapes in the True Lab can be safely called a Dramatic Moment that might require an Expression-Hide. And with Frisk looking at the TV and away from the Player that should be easy - but instead every time a tape stops, Frisk automatically turns around at the direction of the Player.

And then that sequence ends with another big emotional scene with Alphys, and it’s designed in such a way that Frisk, again, is looking straight-on rather than having their back turned to us.

The scene with Asriel STARTS with Frisk’s face being hidden...

But ends with Frisk’s face being seen

Same if you go and talk to Asriel and in the Ruins. 

And this connects in an interesting way with Deltarune, because in that game the relationship between a player character and a player is a much more central theme. Where Undertale has an element of misdirection about how much we’re supposed to project unto both Frisk and Chara, Deltarune pretty quickly gets to the point of making it clear that we are not really playing as Kris and more playing as an otherworldly entity that is possessing Kris. And so the game often actively avoids these face-hiding-immersion techniques that were so common in Undertale. I mean, half of Kris’ face is always hidden to us anyways because they won’t cut their damn bangs but you know what I mean.

Like obvious sometimes Kris’ face is hidden by Dramatic Lighting or the scene set-up, it’ll be hard to avoid this trope completely - but compared to Undertale it is really notable how some of the most dramatically important scenes in the game, which would theoretically benefit from hiding Kris’ face so that we could ‘project’ on them... just don’t do that.

In fact, a lot of significant cutscenes end with Kris’ pose being reset to looking straight-on once it’s over, even if they had their backs to the Player before. Similar to what happens to Frisk in the True Lab.

And while Undertale boss battles always start with Frisk’s face being hidden, and usually because they are facing away from the camera. Important Boss Battles in Deltarune almost always have Kris and friends looking to the side, with Kris’ expression being clearly visable.

Again, this shift is partly because of the change in the battle interface. This set-up is common because it can seamlessly transition to the sideways battle-screen - but it ALSO means we always have a view of Kris’ expression and body language in the most dramatic of situations and I wonder if that might have been a factor in deciding how the battle system was gonna look (or the other way around, Toby designed the battle system and than realized that makes it harder to project on the protagonist so he decided to lean on it and make it a Thing).

I’m still not sure if Kris is just... a very reserved person who doesn’t show their emotions as obviously as the other characters, or if being possessed is making them strangely unresponsive, or if they are as emotional as all the other characters but WE can’t see it but... the fact that we can even notice that is a very deliberate game design choice.

And that’s pretty cool.

[agentravensong]

Why is Weird Route so Weird? (DeltaRune spoilers)

So here’s my thoughts on why Chapter 2's Weird / Snowgrave route exists (on a meta level) and why it in some ways feels even more upsetting than UT’s equivalent. Spoilers under the cut, obviously.

(For those who don't know what this route is, here's the breakdown. Yes it's all real, I've played through it myself.)

In UnderTale, there are little hints that suggest the player isn't Frisk, or Chara. Post-paci, Flowey tells you to let Frisk live their life. At the end of No Mercy run, Chara speaks to you, asking why you want to bring back the world after *you* destroyed it, and, if it's your second run of this type, why you'd then destroy it again. "I cannot understand these feelings anymore."

DeltaRune seems to be taking this idea of the player being a separate entity from the character you control and expanding it by making it the focus of Kris's story. Noelle at the end of Weird Route, in fact, makes it very clear that the voice Kris used to command her to do bad things didn't sound like their voice at all.

That's not my main point here, though. My main point is that, where DR as a whole is expanding on that aspect of UT, giving a different perspective that more so focuses on the horror of being controlled by an outside entity, and which clarifies that the human being controlled in these games is, in fact, their own person...

The Weird route is an expansion and alternate perspective on the No Mercy route, highlighting an aspect of it that many fans - Chara demonizers in particular - seem to miss: the corrupting effect we have on the character being controlled.

In UT's No Mercy route, we see Frisk/Chara become more aggressive, we hear from other characters that they're emoting even less than usual, and the narration becomes much more cynical, dry, and focused on the task at hand. We are teaching Chara that they were brought back for power's sake, that it has been kill or be killed all along, and that there's nothing in this world worth saving.

However, the route's focus is generally more on the destruction and hurt you're causing to the Underground. Frisk as a presence basically disappears, and Chara doesn't confront you about what you've done to them until the end - and by that point, they're fully on your side (as long as you agree to finish what you started). The main source of horror and angst is seeing the towns empty, the monsters' responses to this ongoing tragedy, their futile attempts to stop you, the "but nobody came"s. Hell, you literally get a counter for how many monsters you have left to kill in each area.

It's different in DeltaRune's Weird Route. There's still some of that brand of angst; enemies running away from you after a certain point, and their frozen bodies remaining on the map. But you're never made to kill any characters you're attached to in the same way as UT's bosses (unless you're a big Berdly fan, I guess, and that's still just 1), and you don't see any of the Darkners reacting to the loss of their friends and family. The cars in the streets disappear, but it's not quite the same as seeing Snowdin Town abandoned.

The focus has shifted, from the way you're ruining the world at large by killing, to the way you're corrupting, ruining, the character doing the killing.

But how do you make that focus clear, when Kris's emotions and will are already so suppressed by the player?

You bring in another character under your command, who's even more hesitant to fight than Ralsei. And you break her.

You teach her that it's okay to use whatever methods to get what you want. You teach her to see everyone else as just enemies to cut down. You teach her that getting stronger is the most important thing.

And Kris changes too in this run - you're only able to push Noelle so far (after the first few murders) because crueler dialogue options come up for them, and Susie can tell when they reunite that something's off. But the focus is on Noelle, because it's a lot easier to see how horrible it is when it happens to her. To a character you can't write off as just a mold for you to pour yourself into, or as the embodiment of your own desire for power.

TL:DR;

In UnderTale, you primarily feel bad for killing your friends, and for being a murderer.

In DeltaRune, you primarily feel bad for making someone else a worse person, and for using them (still to kill people).

And if you see how horrible it is to do that to a person - a kid ("teens are just bigger children") - who never asked for it in DeltaRune...

Consider turning that lens of analysis back on UnderTale proper.

Don't forget about Frisk and Chara. Don't forget what you did to them.

P.S. - Some more factors which don't really fit into the rest of this analysis:

UnderTale is a fantasy game through and through. DeltaRune has a clear divide between its fantasy world and the "normal" world. It's one thing to fight, even freeze, all these fantasy creatures. It's another thing when the consequences come home to roost in the real world.

Chapter 1 is set up to make us think a route like this wouldn't be possible. And even in Chapter 2, fighting enemies normally isn't enough to trigger a significantly worse ending. It can only happen because you go against the script (the whole thing starts with you backtracking to Spamton's shop, after all) and make both Kris and Noelle act so out of character.

and a few more points for good measure from @bananonbinary

[starlightshore]

Why do you think the player is an in universe entity? In undertale specifically. I feel like it takes away a lot of what Frisk could be if they are only a puppet

it’s both! frisk is both their own person and under the control of the player. I think Frisk has more control than Kris, but still very much influenced by the player.

long post because i don’t want to clog ya’ll’s dashes.

I think we can all agree on this? you control the soul, same as you do in deltarune.

See, even choices are chosen with the soul. This is the same.

Now, for the choices themselves, I believe they are the opinions of each kid.

They can drastically different opinions!

But I think the biggest and most important viewing of these choices as each kid matters the most here, when you’re at Toriel’s house.

Chara wants to stay and is inquisitive about the Snails. However, Frisk is persistent about leaving, referring to their original home and asking the same questions three times.

And Frisk does more than just supply potential replies -They can even talk on their own without your input.

Frisk will ask Gerson: “What if the child is a human” which -at this point, Frisk wouldn’t know about Chara and is actually about themself. (Chara should already know this information, so we know this is Frisk asking.)

And then in the pacifist ending, you have two choices: “I want to stay with you” and “I have places to go.” Now, either Frisk is unsure of staying with Toriel, or because of the chat with Gerson I believe it’s Frisk who is sure. They want to stay with Toriel -but Chara prefers Frisk go somewhere else. (Each interpretation is valid, who’s to really say!) But here we are! An actual character arc, right here! So Frisk isn’t just walking along the ride but rather reconsidering their choice to leave the Ruins. Toriel even finds it funny.

So on a quick tangent, i promise this is relevant: the plaque in the first puzzle room recommends you stick to one route and stay on that route -that a middle ground is not an option. Which references the Deltarune prophecy, and also references your actions as the player having to stick one method of either FIGHT/MERCY to get the two major endings. In addition, monsters believed was Chara originally, and now view you to be it.

Asgore in neutral/pacifist: (It’s Chara-Frisk’s hopeful eyes that remind him of the hope for monsters/the prophecy. He believed in both kids.)

AKA: this is me proving the Deltarune is important to both Chara, Frisk and the Player. How it’s both shown repetitively to matter to your choices and the game’s routes pretty explicitly -or at least as explicit Undertale gets.

Anyway the point of this is to show that both routes are majorly important, and that Your specific choices influence both kids (both literally, as you playing the game and in-universe here) depending on your choices of FIGHT/MERCY.

Going to briefly recover this talking point, sorry to go over it again so soon:

The dog food bag changes depending on your exp. How Chara views the world within the glass half empty/half full depends on if you’ve been killing or not.

If you punch the dummy, depending on your LV, Frisk will feel different about hurting the dummy.

Frisk is only named in Pacifist, while in No Mercy is defined by You, the player, selling Frisk’s soul -aka the culmination of Frisk’s entire being. A name has power, a name is also the culmination of someone’s being in a sense. The two routes are two extremes on the spectrum.

Now, back to Toriel and Frisk at the pacifist ending. Toriel talks to Frisk, naming them and talking about their choices on this. When Toby is very clearly separating the player characters and You the player in both Undertale and VERY explicitly in Deltarune, this matters a hell of a lot. We, the player, don’t have the choice to stay with Toriel forever because Frisk made that decision to move forward -and it’s their choice and their life to live with Toriel or not.

It’s why it’s so important that Flowey emphasizes this if you try to True Reset:

So, please.Just let them go.

Let Frisk be happy.

Let Frisk live their life.

I think that sums it up. Frisk goes on this journey WITH you, and is not you. It’s still partly their choice -as much as someone who is under control of the Player can choose of course.  And by the end of no mercy, they have zero input if their literal soul is sold or not. And it’s your choice if Frisk gets keep their happy ending, too.

EDIT: this is just more for fun than for the analysis i made above lol.

so like, Frisk acts out their own in cutscenes. I think if Chara’s control is only relevant in No Mercy, because the moment you spare Chara steps back and is unsure of the plan. that you showed kill or be killed in not a rule anymore, and that its possible to get by with sparing. Anyway, Frisk will do things like chase after the annoying dog on their own, play along with the puzzles in snowdin ect.

for more frisk characterization, they’ll have opinions and feelings that chara describes.

* (Playfully crinkling through the leaves fills you with  determination.)

* "Ballet Shoes" - Wpn AT 7 * These used shoes make you  feel incredibly dangerous.

* (Your face reflexively scrunches up.) (referring to Papyrus’ spaghetti)

* Look at these cool toys! * They don't interest you at all.

Tldr;.....frisk is baby :)